Christina Heller, CEO of Metastage shares her insights on her the evolution of volumetric capture and where we are today. Metastage specializes in volumetric capture studio that creates high-fidelity 3D captures which can be integrated into holograms for AR, VR, and other interactive multimedia applications. Since its founding in 2018, Metastage has completed over 150 productions with major brands and award winning projects, including two Emmy nominations. Metastage is the first North American partner for the Microsoft Mixed Reality Capture technology.
More about Christina Heller
Prior to leading Metastage, Christina was the CEO of VR Playhouse, an immersive content company with immersive projects featured at SXSW, Sundance, and Festival de Cannes. She is a recipient of the Advanced Imaging Society’s Distinguished Leadership in Technology Award and was named in the Huffington Post as one of 5 women changing the virtual reality scene. She is currently on the board of advisors for the Real Time Conference, University of Rochester, and the Television Academy’s interactive Peer Group. Her writing and research on volumetric video has been published in the textbook, Handbook of Research on the Global Impacts and Roles of Immersive Media (2019), and What is Augmented Reality? Everything You Wanted to Know Featuring Exclusive Interviews with Leaders of the AR Industry (2019).
PODCAST Transcript – Christina Heller, CEO of Metastage
James Giglio (00:25):
Welcome back to the MVP Interactive Podcast. Today we have a very special guest, Christina Heller, with Metastage. For those of you unaware of what Metastage is, they specialize in volumetric capture that creates high fidelity 3D captures, which can be integrated into holograms for AR, VR, and any other multimedia applications. Christina, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re so excited to speak to you,
Christina Heller (01:09):
James. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
James Giglio (01:12):
You know, I always joke that especially in the sports marketing world, there’s generally conferences and trade shows, and there’s like a small consortium of companies that we, we call like circuit companies, right? And so it’s nice to see you out of the circuit in, in the confines of your, your office and on our podcast. So we really appreciate your time today.
Christina Heller (01:33):
Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. And it’s, it’s always nice to be able to have a a conversation when you’re on the circuit. It tends to be lot of rushed communication <laugh>.
James Giglio (01:44):
Right. Speaking of which, you know, I guess the last time on the circuit, we were on a panel discussion talking about volumetric capture and the current state of the technology, where the future is. But before we really get into the technology and all the cool stuff that you guys have been up to, you know, this podcast really focuses on not only technology, but the entrepreneurial story. So for our listeners that may not be aware of who you are or what your company does, maybe if you can talk to us a little bit about your background or what kind of set you off into this entrepreneurial journey, if you will.
Christina Heller (02:20):
Yeah. So I have, you know, pretty much if you look at my my career trajectory, it’s been a combination of production and entrepreneurship. You know, when I was 23, I started my first production company over in New Hampshire, got a DVX 100 and an iMac with Final Cup Pro, and called myself a boutique production company. Since then that’s been my focus. In my twenties, I did a lot of short form storytelling, nonfiction, journalism, documentary filmmaking. And, and then when I got to around 30, I thought, okay, it’s time to get serious. I became very interested in the intersection of media and tech. I thought, there’s a lot of action happening in technology, but where does that intersect with storytelling, with media?
And it was that for some reason I got called to go to Sundance that year. I had never gone to Sundance before, but for some reason I got called to go there that year for my 30th birthday. And it was there that I went to New Frontiers and tried the first Oculus RIF headset, the DK one. And that was the answer to the question I had been ruminating about, about media and tech. Where does it intersect? I thought, well, here’s a place where it intersects. This is so interesting. And I had that moment that we’ve all had when we first try virtual reality, where I looked all around me in full 360 and thought, wow. So, immediately the light bulb went off with the possibilities of what this could mean for technology, for content, for connection and, and humanity even.
And then convinced a number of people in my creative circle to start a venture called VR Playhouse. That was in 2014. So I started a company called VR Playhouse in 2014 and ran that company for three years. We did 65 projects across many verticals with big brands. We went to international festivals. We did a lot of really interesting work in the emerging AR, VR space. VR Playhouse led to the opportunity with Metastage. I was presented with the opportunity to commercialize the volumetric video technology that Microsoft had spent 10 years developing. The chance to start a new studio with this really incredible tech was just one of those moments that it, you just couldn’t say no, It was, it was too interesting an opportunity to say no to.
So along with my team, we created Metastage from scratch, and that was back in 2018. I’m rounding the corner to five years running Metastage now. And it’s been incredibly exciting to be able to specialize inside of immersive tech in this really amazing space, which I know we’ll get more into. What volumetric video really is like a throwback even to my documentary in my journalism days in that it’s like real performance capture. So anyway, that’s a quick breeze through of my career history and entrepreneurship <laugh>.
James Giglio (05:39):
That’s really important and helpful for our listeners to hear because I think there’s this sort of stereotype of what it means to be an entrepreneur in that, you know, you’re just some really, fresh green kid right? You drop out of college, you have this great idea, and then you kind of go and venture on, and you’re the next Mark Zuckerberg, right? But the reality is much like yourself and me you know, you can have a pretty storied career prior to that aha moment, but I think it’s that aha moment that you really capitalize on and you just give it every fiber.
I always joke where it’s like that moment where you can’t talk yourself out of something, <laugh> is like when you really go for it. So as somebody that also started a business in their thirties, that it’s not too late. I mean, that sounds crazy that it would ever sound too late, right? But there’s just this sort of misconception with entrepreneurialism that you have to be like the smartest 18 year old that it’s ever existed. But it’s that aha moment that we can all appreciate, no matter when it comes to you. Right.
Christina Heller (06:40):
Well, for sure. I mean, I think that you know, I was grateful that I had learned the process of starting businesses at a young age and learned how to file for an LLC and learned how to open a bank account and got some experience with contracts. I didn’t know anything when I was a kid, I mean, I knew some things. We were born with some inherent knowledge, but, really, there’s a lot of nuances and intricacies to running a business and I feel grateful that I had, a chance in my twenties to get my feet wet and start to learn those things. VR Playhouse was the first really ambitious attempt at starting a company. Even then, I still didn’t know what I didn’t know.
I really think that VR Playhouse was the ultimate learning experience for me because we were successful but with that success came leveling up at a rate and level that I had never experienced before. So it was also very stressful, as we went through those years and now with Metastage I’m happy to report that it does get easier over time. I think, my grandfather had a saying that I always said to myself, and I still do, which is the hard road eventually gets easier and the easy road gets harder. I told myself that a lot during the hard times, and I’m happy to report that is true because you just gain some wisdom, perspective, and a backbone of experience that you can reference that just makes it not so intense as you progress.
What a great quote too. I think that absolutely trumps the Winston Churchill quote that I would tell myself, You know, when you’re going through hell, keep going <laugh>, right? And, you know, as entrepreneurs and business owners, it feels like it’s a never ending road, a free fall collapse and then, you kind of navigate things out of your control. And then, oh, let’s throw in a pandemic, and it’s like, what else can I survive here? But, you know, enduring is a real testament to the willpower and the strength of individuals, and your drive to kind of maintain things that you know, will eventually lead to success. So yeah, that’s a great quote. That’s fantastic.
So you had mentioned just five years. That’s not a long time in a lifespan, however, when it comes to technology, you know, that <laugh> moves in light years, right? And so you know, you referenced the VR studio and the production, but, you know, transitioning to volumetric capture, maybe talk to us about the nascent days and like the early days of, you know, when you set up the studio and you know, what technologies and the systems and the riggings that you were using. And kind of talk us through where things are at now.
Christina Heller (09:35):
The beginning. Yeah, so volumetric video is the process of capturing a real performance in full 3D. So it’s not like motion capture where somebody’s going out in a point suit and you’re capturing their movements to then puppet an animated figure, think avatar, that kind of thing. Instead, this is when you, you want to be working in a 3D native space. So you think augmented reality, virtual reality, or any 3D software, but you want a real human performance. I don’t want an animated James, I want the real James. So volumetric video is the process of doing that. And so someone will go out on Metasage and we use 106 cameras all circling them like a globe facing in and say, action. And the performance takes place. So it could be an athlete doing one of their signature moves, it could be a musician performing one of their, you know, hit songs.
It could be someone giving a speech. And we are, we’re capturing it from every angle. We put it through our software, which as I mentioned right now, we’re using the Microsoft mixed reality capture system. And it is an extremely sophisticated system that allows for high, really high quality reconstruction of all that data, as well as incredible compression to create a 3D asset on the other side that’s super tiny streamable and able to be enjoyed on common devices like cell phones, iPads, but also AR, VR headsets, et cetera.
And when we first started, you know, the first time shout out to Adi, the very first time I ever tried VR volumetric video I think was 2015 with ai. And it was, you know, I’ve had a few of those moments in my career that are just transitional jaw-dropping moments. And the first time I saw volumetric capture in a VR headset and had the experience of seeing someone standing right in front of me feeling their presence it was, it was mind blowing, but the technology was very early at that point.
You know, when I walked around the figure, it would kind of break in the back and it was like very artifacty and, just not really at a super high quality level yet. And and what was exciting about launching with the Microsoft Tech back in 2018 was just how good the tech had become. You know, they had, really we were just doing clean, full 3D capture.
There were tools for integration that made it easy for developers to build repeat projects and pipelines with. It just felt like for the first time, at least it through my view, that the tech was truly commercially viable and ready to come to market. And to be that team that helped usher it to market was, and will always be like one of the greatest privileges of my career. Especially because I love people, I love authenticity, and I come from a journalism background and a documentary film background.
So being the shepherd of the real person into the metaverse is just something I can really get down with. And so when we launched the stage we had, I had some ideas of course with for who would use it and because I’d been working in the space for a number of years by that point, but we were really open minded about who our first clients would be. And interestingly for this podcast, I mean, sports was just immediately something people gravitated to because being able to see famous athletes in 3D right in front of you is compelling, obviously,
James Giglio (13:13):
So you had mentioned Microsoft and talk to us a little bit about that partnership and, you know, the evolution of their technology. I mean, obviously they are a world class brand in, in the realm of technology and you know, we are certainly a Microsoft shop as well, and not only using their operating systems, but some of their peripherals. And so maybe talk us through how that relationship formed and, you know how effective and efficient their technology is in terms of the processing or, you know, what does it take to actually once you get that capture and where’s the magic behind, you know, the software and the rendering times?
Christina Heller (13:46):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I’ll, start by saying there are a number of volumetric video technologies out there, and they all had benefits and limitations, you know but what was really compelling and continues to be compelling about the Microsoft system is the quality that we get in particular in the face. You know, you want, if you’re talking about a recognizable public figure, you want the face to look great. And I just think the Microsoft system really does a great job with faces and a shout out to my team. We’ve really learned how to use that tech, and get the absolute most out of it and get the most beautiful work. But going back, you know, so it all starts with like Steve Sullivan and, and the team at the Microsoft Mixed Reality Capture studios. They got the bug for volumetric capture and wanted to develop a pipeline for it.
And they were really focused on two things, quality and compression and ease of integration. I think they realized that if volumetric was gonna take off, it needed to be a commercially viable product. Like it’s one thing to get a good clean capture, but it doesn’t mean anything if the file’s so big, you can’t actually integrate it into a project or you need like a giant computer to access it. So that was the sort of focus, the nexus of their research and development and it informed a lot of aspects of the pipeline, just that focus on compression and quality. By the time we came onboard, they had a reliable product that was getting that compression and quality and tools to integrate into Unity and Unreal, which were the biggest platforms for integration.
Since then, we’ve also expanded to browser based integration. So you can stream it through, you know, 8th Wall and the web. You can integrate it into typical VFX softwares like Houdini, Maya New, I mean, also just becoming software agnostic with the tech has also been a focus, but I think they were, Microsoft’s not a production out outfit, and so they were really eager to find a team, ideally in a market like, you know, Los Angeles, where there’s a lot going on to be the ones to usher it to, to North America. There were a group of investors that partnered with Microsoft to do this. I was brought in to execute and start literally the company from scratch along with Skylar Sweetman and Adam Tial and Joel Jones Marino and my team I brought on shortly thereafter to get it off the ground and running.
And so we work, the relationship with Microsoft is close, obviously, because especially in the beginning we were representing this tech that meant so much to them, and I felt a lot of pressure to make sure that I was messaging it right and that we were good stewards of it. But I think at this point now, I guess we’re almost five years in. There’s a lot of trust there and certainly and now we’ve expanded to a partner stage in Vancouver and we’re looking at a couple other locations. So it’s, been good.
James Giglio (17:10):
Yeah. That’s fantastic. You know what, before we get into the roadmap, I wanted to touch on something, two things, really big. Shout out to 8th Wall, another partner company of ours. So those of you that are unfamiliar with 8th Wall, they are a great web based AR engine that allows creators build AR experiences on the web. And so a lot of Christina’s content has been captured in her studio and built into AR applications. And obviously some of the AR work that we have done has been on the 8th Wall platform as well. So we talk about these circuit businesses or companies, so big shout out to 8th Wall and their team there. But the second thing you mentioned is your team and talking about the production and really understanding and knowing how to maximize your capture.
And so anyone that has been in production, I remember, you know, the early days of 360 filming and some of the VR work that we’ve done, we focus in and around live events, right? In particular sports. And so you have one take, right? And so, we had to learn trial and error with some of the best practices of capturing 360 video. I’m curious what some of these lessons for you and your team have been and how you’ve been able to really maximize the efficiency of your productions.
Christina Heller (18:25):
Sure. Well the first thing is this is not a fix it in post workflow. So being detail oriented in your pre-production process is important. And we take that very seriously and there’s a lot of consult that happens with our clients before we even get on stage. And you know, for instance, hair is a challenge. Anybody who works at 3D Tech would know this. You know, there’s something if it’s, if something is too thin or wispy, the system has trouble recognizing the geometry of that. And so if you have hair like dangling in the face of the capture subject, it’s going to create this globbing and effect some artifacting that is just not going to be at the level that we hold ourselves to. Early on I remember arguing with talent who really want, had a bad haircut for volumetric and who wouldn’t let us style it.
And I think we were too green and nervous to push back against the kind on set that day. And as a result, we, you know, her captures just didn’t come out as beautiful as we would’ve liked. So now we have a lot more processes for, for dealing with that. We have look books that can show you best practices. We will look at the talent ahead of time and find looks they’ve already worn and suggest those looks for the capture process. And we’ve also learned how to do hair down, for instance, in ways where we can still get good results. In the beginning, I think after that experience we were scared for little, we were putting everything in a bun. Every hairstyle was a long hairstyle was a bun or a ponytail. Now we know how to do hair down, but in ways where we can still get good clean captures.
So that’s the first thing. Wardrobe, hair blocking props, you know, thinking about all of that and finding the best way to achieve client goals and also get the best capture in addition lighting. Like, you know, we used to do everything with this flat lighting cuz we just thought that was the best move and that was kind of an industry best practice at the time. And we learned, you know, within that first year that actually giving it a slightly directional lighting creates a look of higher fidelity, more definition on the face and just frankly, a more human face, a little less of a gamey look. So we’ve really dialed in our lighting at this point as well. And then finally in the processing we do a lot of QC. Now we don’t have a team of artists that are cleaning up these captures.
There’s not like any big hidden secrets or skeletons in the closet at Metastage where we have a team of VFX artists working on everything to make it look great. But we do take all of our captures through a frame by frame QC process where we will spin it around and analyze the capture and see if there’s anything that isn’t looking correct. And if we are able to fix it through our pipeline, we will fix it. I think that that we feel pretty confident that by the time we deliver something, we have given it as much as we can give it. And then there’s your finished final product.
James Giglio (21:44):
Right? I see, and this is the expertise and the professionalism that you’re looking for when you’re investing in a volumetric capture engagement, right? So I know that there’s a lot of third party apps that are coming up on the scene and creators are trying to rig some things together, but you know, it’s this level of experience and know how that really justifies, you know, the worth and the value of going into a studio such as Metastage to make sure you, you get it right. And it’s funny that you mentioned the hair because I was just thinking, I was on a production overseas recently and it was just a 2D capture and you know, we have a platform that allows fans in AR to pose with celebrity or an athlete, right? And so we were filming happened to be an F1 one driver, right?
And you know, his beautiful flowing hair on the green screen and there’s lights and you know, same thing where we had noticed the glistering flickers of his light of his hair were not gonna be easily removed in screen right? And so thankfully they had a stage hand with some fine Italian pomade to kind of dampen down his hair and we were able to get the shot. So that’s, that’s interesting that you can have the relatable experiences, whether it’s 3D or 2D capture as well. So speaking on that, and you know, I’d imagine you’re going to have a very modest and, and sort of PC response to this question, but, you know, we both have the pleasure of working within celebrities, athletes and these really fun lifestyle type of engagements. But if you can kind of call back to maybe some of your favorite productions, if you are able to you know, let’s hear about some of those, like what are some of the maybe challenging ones that it was great to overcome some of those challenges or if you, if you can enlighten us on that, that would be awesome.
Christina Heller (23:23):
Sure. I don’t know if it’s just because this is the MVP Interactive podcast or if it’s because it actually was, but we, we did a production in July 2020 in the Heart of the Pandemic and we were shooting 18 NFL players coming into the studio. And the idea was they were doing hype chance touchdown signs, go for two, and it was all part of a Verizon sponsored hall emoji experience where your players would pop up almost like emojis during game play and, and cheer on, you know, the teams. And because it was the pandemic, we had players from a variety of different teams because they were all stuck at home. And so we had access to them and we actually had started off being what could have been the most disastrous shoot in that we had a case pop out in the core staff and everybody who had been in contact with that person, including the director of the experience, was no longer going to be able to be at set during the production day.
And so I became the director of the shoot and we had to quickly hire some last, I actually Microsoft sent somebody down to help us out with capture and you know, we had to assemble a team at the last minute. So super stressful at first, but now I’m on set and I’m getting to direct all these athletes coming in and, and doing all this work. And because it has was the first time out of the house for so many of them, the mood was like everybody was in an awesome mood. We were. And, and it was, and volumetric captures actually a really fun process. We focus on that a lot at Metastage, just making it like a fun, positive, good vibe experience and because it’s so easy for the talent, like they literally just go out in the middle of the stage, we say action and they just do whatever they’re gonna do and if they nail it on the first take, that’s it.
So it’s really, really easy on talent. It’s not min, there’s not a lot of takes and they can just be themselves. And so we were just like an assembly line of, of athletes coming in and they’re just doing their thing and everybody was in a great mood and we, we got through it. No, like without a hitch. The players had a great time. We actually heard from their management, you know, that they were really happy with the experience. The NFL reached out and said they had been really happy with the experience. Our client, which was Riot and, and Verizon, you know, were, again with all the anxiety and stress leading into it to have had such a good experience. Then in the end everyone was so, so grateful. It was like three days and I felt like at the end of it, I left it all out in the field, you know, I was exhausted. But I just went out to Santa Monica and I went and put my feet in the ocean and just kind of had one of those moments where I thought like I was proud of myself, I felt very fulfilled and man, like what a fun, what a fun ride.
James Giglio (26:42):
That is one of the most satisfying experiences because again, anyone in production knows they are long, long, long days, right? It’s hurry up and wait and there’s a lot of stress. It’s a one take type of experience and then but yeah, there is just an unimaginable amount of reward and satisfaction when it, you kind of cut, it’s high fives, it’s hugs, everyone got along and it’s like, you know, you’d be super proud. So that’s an awesome feeling and certainly relatable and it’s great that you had, you know, it’s funny because I just had a conversation with a client about this with terms of the different types of talent, right? And, you know, who’s great to work with and maybe who’s some challenge, you know, who’s particularly challenging. And you know, it’s funny because each, each of the professional sports groups have their own set of personalities, right? And so we were on a production just this week with a set of NHL players and you know, they are so modest, so humble, not demonstrative, you know, so try not animated, right? So trying to get them engaged was a directorial challenge in some ways. But you always find a way in terms of tying into their personalities and, and being able to capture that. So that, that’s awesome.
Christina Heller (27:51):
I think athletes, I actually find athletes are great to work with generally because, and I think it’s because there’s a teammanship that’s built in to them early on and you know, they’re like, I don’t know, they’re team players. They’re down. Like, I, I don’t know. I have always, we’ve had really good experiences with athletes at Metastage.
James Giglio (28:13):
That’s fantastic. And I’m glad none of the players unions or their agents got in the way of like, you know, production cuz we’ve experienced that as well. So you had mentioned in terms of expanding to Vancouver, congratulations on that. And so maybe we can kind of transition a little bit to what’s on the roadmap you know, what are some of the needs and demands of the market itself and where the technology is going. So if you can educate us on that, that would be nominal.
Christina Heller (28:41):
Sure. So shout out to our partners in Vancouver. We have a little, a Metastage up there and it’s part of the Departure Lounge that’s the parent company from which Metastage Vancouver lives now. They opened in August of this year and it’s the same stage to what we have here in Los Angeles, which is a really top of the line studio. So if you’re working in Vancouver or the town, your talents based in Vancouver, you’re in good hands with them. I think certainly, you know, we are looking strategically at other markets because so much of the work is where the talent is located. And you know, as of now Metastage works in professional sound stages to get a very high quality capture. So it’s, at the moment we don’t like to bring, I mean you can bring the Metastage to a location, but it is, it’s big and expensive to do that.
So we say it’s always best if people can come to our stage. And so therefore having versions of Metastage and key markets is something we’re evaluating right now and exploring. I’m also extremely bullish on using this tech for training applications in VR and in AR. If you look at VR training has a lot of stats backing up, it’s efficacy, but if you look at a lot of the VR training applications, they’ll be using these like synthetic, like kind of cheesy video game characters. And my thesis is that if you’re trying to teach about real human behavior or you wanna create any kind of human connection in your training experience, you should use volumetric video capture real people. And so we had the opportunity last year to do a few different police training experiences with Axon for police deescalation training, how to deal with difficult civilians when you pull them over.
And these are truly interactive experiences where your actions lead to consequences and they can be good or bad consequences. We also were selected as a finalist for a veterans affairs program called Mission Daybreak to help with PTSD and suicide prevention. And so that was a huge honor, you know, of 1400 applicants. We’re one of 30 now in this phase one of the project. And we are looking at using volumetric video and mixed reality to help, to help educate friends, family and community around veterans on how to support them best, how to recognize signs of depression, anxiety, suicide risk, and also to capture veteran stories. You know, find people who are willing to talk about the challenges of reintegration and some of their low points and how they got through it. Because I then I think that being able to feel the presence of someone when they’re talking to you in this way is really unique and my hope is that it will allow people to feel connected and retain that information more fully.
James Giglio (31:44):
Well that’s phenomenal work and good on you for, for taking on those projects and I, I’m sure there’s a tremendous value in being able to do that and giving those folks a story and therapeutic to kind of manage what they’ve gone through. And so you had mentioned the ability, although it’s expensive in arduous to, you know, to have the stage come to you in the future, is it a reasonable expectation that these, this type of capture and the quality can be a mobile experience in, in terms of bringing maybe not a hundred cameras but 50 cameras or so, and like, cuz I’m really curious, I think the market is curious as to, you know, the expandability of that opportunity when athletes don’t have to travel or celebrities don’t have to travel and you can bring the stage to these creators. You know, I would imagine that would be a massive opportunity for you.
Christina Heller (32:36):
The market for sure. Like there’s mobile volumetric video, but it’s just not at a super high quality level. And I don’t want actually like, tear down any companies, it’s that, you know, a lot of it’s impressive given the technology where it’s at and the need to be able to throw it up quickly in any location. I fantasize a lot about having our tech on a truck that we can, like on an expandable truck that we can roll to a stadium or roll to a location, roll to some athlete’s house or something like that. So I’ll throw this out there. If anyone listening wants to help me fund a truck, let me know because these things are not cheap. These trucks are not cheap, but I do really think that it would unlock a lot for us. And so therefore, if you are interested, please contact christina@ metastage.com
James Giglio (33:28):
<Laugh>. That was actually going to be my next question. We’re wrapping up here on our time. So where can our listeners find you? Where can they find your company and you know, any parting words you’d like to share?
Christina Heller (33:40):
Sure. So we’re on most of the social media platforms as either Metastage or Metastagexr. I’m Christina Heller. For better or for worse, I’m just my full name on all of the, all of the social media platforms. Most of us are just first email@example.com. We also have a a generic firstname.lastname@example.org and feel free to reach out if you have any questions. We’re happy to walk you through and talk you through your ideas and your projects. And I hope James, that we get to work together sometimes soon.
James Giglio (34:13):
I know. It’s been, you know, since the pandemic, my travel out west has dramatically decreased in terms of the frequency. So I know that we had set up, you know, potentially our teams getting to capture. So I’m gonna hold this to it, I’m gonna make sure that happens. And you know, now that we’re fully opened and business is back roaring, we’re gonna make that happen. So Christina, thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a pleasure. Everyone thanks for listening and please join us, find us on all of your streaming outlets, @ MVP Interactive, and visit us at www.mvp-interactive.com.
Listen to more podcasts at https://mvp-interactive.com/podcast/.
Watch the video version below.